David Familian and Professor N. Katherine Hayles, scholars aligned in their art-science interests, met at UC Irvine in August 2024 to discuss the exhibition Future Tense: Art, Complexity, and Uncertainty, which was then running at the Beall Center for Art + Technology at UC Irvine from August 2024 through January 2025. They used this opportunity to further explore Hayles’ work relating to chaos and complexity, as well as her early observations of cybernetics.
David Familian: Can you talk a little about your background and your interest in chaos and complexity in your research?
Katherine Hayles: I started my professional career in the sciences, as a chemist. I did my undergraduate work in chemistry and then got a master’s degree in the field, and only then did I start the serious study of literature and culture. What I acquired during my scientific training were the basic mathematical tools to understand the world of science. I was really interested in how ideas circulate between the humanistic and scientific communities. At the time that I started my research into quantum field theory, there were a lot of influence studies–the influence of Newton on Alexander Pope and so forth–but it seemed to me that there existed much richer connections. My first book, The Cosmic Web: Scientific Field Models and Literary Strategies in the 20th Century (1984), was an attempt to begin to develop a theory in which one could talk about those interconnections. My second book, Chaos Bound: Orderly Disorder in Contemporary Literature and Science (1990), was a case study of how that actually works in practice. So, my interest in chaos goes back to the 1980s and 1990s. Chaos science seemed to me a marvelously fertile paradigm. When it matured into complexity theory, it was able to explain and investigate a huge range of phenomena—which is on display in this show.
DF: One of the things about your Chaos book that I remember is when you were writing about Mandelbrot, you talked about how his contemporaries were making fun of his work, as if it were too feminine or intuitive. How could a scientist not be curious, or not have intuition?
KH: Or, how could a scientist not be human, and have all of the insights and frailties of humans?
DF: It’s fascinating how you went from the sciences to the humanities. I’m reading a book now which mentions Heidegger saying that philosophy is not the handmaiden of science. But then, thirty years later, he gave that lecture where he said that cybernetics is the new metaphysics. And in your book, How We Became Posthuman (1999), you go back to the origins of cybernetics, if I remember correctly.
KH: I went back to the Macy Conferences [on Cybernetics, held in New York from 1946 to 1953] and did a close reading of several of their annual conferences. But I was really interested in some fundamental questions, one of which was how information lost its body. And I was also interested in the emergence of this new vision of what the human was, a notion I labeled as the Posthuman, which was rapidly subverting and rearranging traditional ideas from the Enlightenment like free will, the autonomous self, and so forth, and cybernetics had a role to play in that. It’s kind of a conundrum that even as cybernetic ideas diffused into culture generally, cybernetics as an academic discipline virtually disappeared. Cybernetic ideas were taken up and became central in any number of fields, but not in themselves as a coherent discipline.
DF: What’s interesting in the Steve Strogatz book I’m reading, Sync, is that he mentions cybernetics and claims, falsely, that we don’t practice cybernetics any more, yet his whole book is about ideas that came out of cybernetics. The way I look at it is that cybernetics is a methodology, not necessarily a science. It’s a way of looking at our world. Maybe the idea, like Wittgenstein says, is that we don’t think up language, we only pick it up socially. It’s the feedback between us that makes us human, it’s not all internal.
KH: Absolutely.
KH: Some of the ideas of cybernetics are being resurrected in other contexts, for example one of the important papers that Norbert Wiener co-wrote was called “Behavior, Purpose and Teleology.” Their argument was that cybernetics leads to teleological conclusions, because the whole idea of goal-seeking behavior was one of the fundamentals of their early robotic installations. More recently, Michael Levin at Tufts University has picked up that argument about teleological behavior in the context of microorganisms, bacteria, and such, arguing that the only way to understand these microscopic forms of behavior is as a desire to continue their existence. He collaborated on an essay with Daniel Dennett called “Agents with Agendas.” Their argument basically is “if you don’t understand the agenda, you can’t understand the behavior,” which is precisely the argument that Weiner was making in the 1950s. So these arguments get resurrected. Now, of course, Levin is talking about microorganisms, not about robotics, but I think there’s a deep connection there.
DF: Can you define teleological?
KH: Teleological means behavior directed toward some goal, and that the goal is preset and defined, that the goal dictates the behavior rather than the behavior dictating the end result.
DF: And then the goal changes because you have to adapt to new environments. So the environment then becomes a trigger.
KH: Absolutely. There’s a fascinating recent paper out by Stewart Kauffman, a theoretical biologist, and Guiseppo Longo, a French mathematician, and they’re basically arguing that there’s a definitive divide between physical systems and living systems. The difference is precisely that living systems are teleological. Living systems want to continue their existence. And physical systems don’t want anything, things just happen, like a lake evaporating or a mountain eroding. There’s no agent there to give it a teleological impetus. But as soon as we get into the biological realm, those teleological impulses are everywhere. The progress of a physical system, even very complex ones with criticality points and so on, can be mapped into phase spaces showing how their trajectories will proceed. With biological systems, no such tidy evolutionary trajectory is possible.
KH: Kaufman and Longo give the example of the lungfish, a species which breathes air and water through both gills and lungs. They say that as water entered the fish’s lungs, the organ turned into a swim bladder and was used to regulate buoyancy. This created a new niche and opened the pathway for a new species—say a worm or a bacterium– to evolve that would exploit this development. That’s what Kaufman means by the adjacent possible. Something opens a new opportunity adjacent to an existing opportunity, and now evolution can take on a new trajectory.
DF: In Gail Wight’s work in the show, Ostracod Rising, global warming is affecting evolution in microorganisms and creating new adjacent possibilities for these species to evolve and enter new environments.
KH: Maybe we can use that as a segue to talk about the exhibition. What really struck me about the show was the equal playing field on which robots, microorganisms, non-human species and humans appear, all woven together in complex ecology. If you think in environmental terms, that’s exactly the way that complex systems work. It may start with symbiosis between two species but then begins to spread more and more.
My new book, Bacteria to AI: Human Futures with our Nonhuman Symbionts, tries to approach these complex interactions through the notion of cognition. Cognition was very carefully chosen because the human species considers itself to have superior cognitive powers to any other species, and that’s what accounts for our putative ability to dominate every other species on earth. But this new research, of the kind in which Michael Levin engages, is beginning to expand the notion of cognition beyond the human, into the nonhuman. These moves are inviting a radical reappraisal of what constitutes cognition. It inevitably feeds back to affect how we think about human cognition as well; instead of a simplistic idea of human superiority, now we have this much more complex and humbling view of human cognition as one form of cognition active with many other forms in complex ecosystems. I very much saw that on display in this exhibition, and it’s a wonderful way to approach complex systems and complexity in general.
DF: One of the goals of this show was not just to have people intellectually process the idea of a complex system, which I think is very important to our survival, but to feel it. That’s what art allows us to do is to feel what this looks like, because our minds don’t work that way. We try to bring sequential order to our lives, but now, in order to understand the world, we have to change that. We have to see the world as a complex system, and our brains have to change to think in patterns rather than in cause and effect. We’re trapped in this linear thinking that has produced all this wonderful knowledge, but it’s almost useless for solving the wicked problems we face today.
Responding to your comment, I specifically wanted the artworks included in Future Tense to each engage multiple systems.
KH: Right, and at different scales as well, from the intercellular to the forest. I was really taken by Laura Splan’s work, Baroque Bodies (Sway). That was, to me, quite remarkable, both visually and conceptually. It showed this interplay between the environmental and genetic factors, and how they could work together to create a very complex system.
I was also extremely interested in Cesar & Lois’s sculptural display of the ecosystem in Being hyphaenated, with the plants and the fungi collaborating to convey messages back and forth. I recently had occasion to read Suzanne Simard’s seminal paper on what would come to be called the “Wood Wide Web.” Her research was fundamental in showing the way fungi and root systems collaborate to carry messages and distribute nutrients, leading to a really complex symbiotic system. I thought the sculptural quality of that artwork made these interactions visually apparent and quite appealing.
I’ll add one more element to this tapestry we’re weaving here, and that is Lynn Hershman Leeson’s piece on facial recognition and AI interpretations. I think if we’re going to re-envision cognition, crucial components of that are the cognitive abilities of computational media, including AI, algorithms, and so forth. We’re beginning to understand more fully how there is this deep interconnection between human cognition and the cognitive abilities of computational media, and to explore our ongoing symbiosis with computational media. Re-envisioning cognition, in my view, has to have a place not only for non-human life forms, but also for non-human cognizers.
DF: So it’s not just biological, it’s also computational.
KH: That’s right. I call this new framework to understand cognition the Integrated Cognitive Framework, the ICF. The “integrated part” of that phrase refers to emphasizing and exploring more fully the way in which feedback loops are operative throughout this system. From AI to human, from human to AI, from nonhuman life forms to human and back again.
DF: Feedback is the engine, it’s what keeps the thing alive.
In Roy Ascott’s idea of moistmedia, there is a constant exchange between the “dry” computation and “moist” nature. Maybe AI needs more than the inputs we provide based on what we want to get out of it, but something else that comes from the environment or other sources.
KH: Imagine an AI that could choose its data training set. What if it really wants the data from a forest in England, for example, rather than human-authored texts. That’s fascinating.
Notes
- For more information and recordings documenting the Macy Conferences, see https://www.asc-cybernetics.org/foundations/.
- For more information, see: Sophie Yeo, “The ‘wood wide web’ theory charmed us all – but now it’s the subject of a bitter fight among scientists,” The Guardian, July 9, 2024, .